Is Krishna an Avatar of Vishnu?

Compiled from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada WHO IS VISNU?

sahasra-sirsa purusah

sahasraksah sahasra-pat

sahasra-bahur visvatma

sahasramsah sahasra-suh

narayanah sa bhagavan

apas tasmat sanatanat

avirasit karanarno

nidhih sankarsanatmakah

yoga-nidram gatas tasmin

sahasramsah svayam mahan

(Sri Brahma-samhita 5.11-12)

The Lord of the mundane world, Maha-Visnu, possesses thousands of thousands of heads, eyes, hands and so on. He is the source of thousands of thousands of avataras in His thousands of thousands of subjective portions. He is the creator of thousands of thousands of individual souls. The same Maha-Visnu is spoken of by the name of "Narayana" in this mundane world. From that eternal person has sprung the vast expanse of water of the spiritual Causal Ocean. The subjective portion of Sankarsana who abides in paravyoma, the above supreme purusa with thousands of subjective portions, reposes in the state of divine sleep [yoga-nidra] in the waters of the spiritual Causal Ocean.

KRSNA AND VISHNU'S EXPANSIONS

Srila Prabhupada explains the various expansions as follows:

From Krsna, or Govinda, comes Balarama; from Balarama comes Sankarsana; from Sankarsana, Narayana; from Narayana, the second Sankarsana; from the second Sankarsana, Maha-Visnu; from Maha-Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu; and from Garbhodakasayi Visnu, Ksirodakasayi Visnu.

SB 6.16.37 purport

When the material world is created, the Maha-Visnu expansion is there. From Maha-Visnu, all these universes are generated. And from Maha-Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu is expanded. This Garbhodakasayi Visnu enters into each universe, and then, in each universe, from Garbhodakasayi Visnu, Ksirodakasayi Visnu is expanded.

That Ksirodakasayi Visnu has a planet within this universe near the polestar. And from that Ksirodakasayi Visnu, the expansion Paramatma is distributed in everyone's heart.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 20.172–244 – December 16, 1966, New York

Maha-Visnu is called Karanodakasayi Visnu. And this Karanodakasayi Visnu enters in every universe as Garbhodakasayi Visnu. And this Garbhodakasayi Visnu again expands as Ksirodakasayi Visnu.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.8 – March 5, 1972, Calcutta

First Krsna, then Balarama, then Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha, Vasudeva. Vasudeva, Sankarsana. Then, from Sankarsana, Narayana. Then, from Narayana, again catur-vyuha, second Sankarsana, Vasudeva, Aniruddha. And from the second Sankarsana is Maha-Visnu. And from Maha-Visnu, Karanodakasayi-Visnu. And from Karanodakasayi-Visnu, Ksirodakasayi-Visnu. The Ksirodakasayi-Visnu is in each universe. He is the Supersoul.

Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay – June 4, 1974, Geneva

Finally, the Caitanya Caritamrta says:

visnos tu trini rupani

purusakhyany atho viduh

ekam tu mahatah srastr

dvitiyam tv anda-samsthitam

trtiyam sarva-bhuta-stham

tani jnatva vimucyate

(Madhya 20.251)

"'Visnu has three forms called purusas. The first, Maha-Visnu, is the creator of the total material energy [mahat], the second is Garbhodasayi, who is situated within each universe, and the third is Ksirodasayi, who lives in the heart of every living being. He who knows these three becomes liberated from the clutches of maya.'

To summarize:

1st)Sri Krsna

2nd) Balarama

3rd) Vasudeva-Sankarsana-Pradyumna-Aniruddha

(first set of quadruple forms)

4th) Narayana

5th) Vasudeva-Sankarsana-Pradyumna-Aniruddha

(second set of quadruple forms)

6th) Maha-Vishnu

7th) Garbodakasayi-Vishnu. It is from this particular Vishnu (namely Garbodakasayi-Vishnu) that the trio (Guna-avataras) viz… Vishnu (known as Ksirodakasayi-Vishnu), Brahma and Shiva appear

8th) Ksirodakasayi- Vishnu. The different avataras (incarnations) that appear in this world appear through the body of this particular Vishnu (Ksirodakasayi- Vishnu)

9th) Paramatma (the Super consciousness or Supersoul expanded from Ksirodakasayi- Vishnu).

I will now present quotes that more minutely describe the three purusa Vishnu expansions:

THE FIRST PURUSA: MAHA VISHNU

suta uvaca

jagrhe paurusam rupam

bhagavan mahad-adibhih

sambhutam sodasa-kalam

adau loka-sisrksaya

Suta said: In the beginning of the creation, the Lord first expanded Himself in the universal form of the purusa incarnation and manifested all the ingredients for the material creation. And thus at first there was the creation of the sixteen principles of material action. This was for the purpose of creating the material universes.

(SB 1.3.1)

Srila Prabhupada comments: "When the creation is again set up, this mahat-tattva is again let loose. This mahat-tattva contains all the ingredients of the material manifestations, including the conditioned souls. Primarily this mahat-tattva is divided into sixteen parts, namely the five gross material elements and the eleven working instruments or senses. It is like the cloud in the clear sky. In the spiritual sky, the effulgence of Brahman is spread all around, and the whole system is dazzling in spiritual light. 

The mahat-tattva is assembled in some corner of the vast, unlimited spiritual sky, and the part which is thus covered by the mahat-tattva is called the material sky. This part of the spiritual sky, called the mahat-tattva, is only an insignificant portion of the whole spiritual sky, and within this mahat-tattva there are innumerable universes. All these universes are collectively produced by the Karanodakasayi Visnu, called also the Maha-Visnu, who simply throws His glance to impregnate the material sky."

SECOND PURUSA: GARBHODAKASAYI VISHNU

yasyambhasi sayanasya

yoga-nidram vitanvatah

nabhi-hradambujad asid

brahma visva-srjam patih

A part of the purusa lies down within the water of the universe, from the navel lake of His body sprouts a lotus stem, and from the lotus flower atop this stem, Brahma, the master of all engineers in the universe, becomes manifest.

(SB 1.3.2)

Srila Prabhupada comments: "The first purusa is the Karanodakasayi Visnu. From His skin holes innumerable universes have sprung up. In each and every universe, the purusa enters as the Garbhodakasayi Visnu. He is lying within the half of the universe which is full with the water of His body. And from the navel of Garbhodakasayi Visnu has sprung the stem of the lotus flower, the birthplace of Brahma, who is the father of all living beings and the master of all the demigod engineers engaged in the perfect design and working of the universal order. Within the stem of the lotus there are fourteen divisions of planetary systems, and the earthly planets are situated in the middle. Upwards there are other, better planetary systems, and the topmost system is called Brahmaloka or Satyaloka. Downwards from the earthly planetary system there are seven lower planetary systems inhabited by the asuras and similar other materialistic living beings.

From Garbhodakasayi Visnu there is expansion of the Ksirodakasayi Visnu, who is the collective Paramatma of all living beings. He is called Hari, and from Him all incarnations within the universe are expanded.

Therefore, the conclusion is that the purusa-avatara is manifested in three features -- first the Karanodakasayi, who creates the aggregate material ingredients in the mahat-tattva, second the Garbhodakasayi, who enters in each and every universe, and third the Ksirodakasayi Visnu, who is the Paramatma of every material object, organic or inorganic. One who knows these plenary features of the Personality of Godhead knows Godhead properly, and thus the knower becomes freed from the material conditions of birth, death, old age and disease, as it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita.

In this sloka the subject matter of Maha-Visnu is summarized. The Maha-Visnu lies down in some part of the spiritual sky by His own free will. Thus He lies on the ocean of karana, from where He glances over His material nature, and the mahat-tattva is at once created. Thus electrified by the power of the Lord, the material nature at once creates innumerable universes, just as in due course a tree decorates itself with innumerable grown fruits. The seed of the tree is sown by the cultivator, and the tree or creeper in due course becomes manifested with so many fruits. Nothing can take place without a cause. The Karana Ocean is therefore called the Causal Ocean. Karana means "causal." We should not foolishly accept the atheistic theory of creation. The description of the atheists is given in the Bhagavad-gita. The atheist does not believe in the creator, but he cannot give a good theory to explain the creation. Material nature has no power to create without the power of the purusa, just as a prakrti, or woman, cannot produce a child without the connection of a purusa, or man. The purusa impregnates, and the prakrti delivers. We should not expect milk from the fleshy bags on the neck of a goat, although they look like breastly nipples. Similarly, we should not expect any creative power from the material ingredients; we must believe in the power of the purusa, who impregnates prakrti, or nature. Because the Lord wished to lie down in meditation, the material energy created innumerable universes at once, and in each of them the Lord lay down, and thus all the planets and the different paraphernalia were created at once by the will of the Lord. The Lord has unlimited potencies, and thus He can act as He likes by perfect planning, although personally He has nothing to do. No one is greater than or equal to Him. That is the verdict of the Vedas.

THIRD PURUSA: KSIRODAKASAYI VISHNU

etan nanavataranam

nidhanam bijam avyayam

yasyamsamsena srjyante

deva-tiryan-naradayah

This form [the second manifestation of the purusa] is the source and indestructible seed of multifarious incarnations within the universe. From the particles and portions of this form, different living entities, like demigods, men and others, are created.

PURPORT

Srila Prabhupada comments: "The purusa, after creating innumerable universes in the mahat-tattva, entered in each of them as the second purusa, Garbhodakasayi Visnu. When He saw that within the universe there were only darkness and space, without a resting place, He filled half of the universe with water from His own perspiration and laid Himself down on the same water. This water is called Garbhodaka. Then from His navel the stem of the lotus flower sprouted, and on the flower petals the birth of Brahma, or the master engineer of the universal plan, took place. Brahma became the engineer of the universe, and the Lord Himself took charge of the maintenance of the universe as Visnu. Brahma was generated from rajo-guna of prakrti, or the mode of passion in nature, and Visnu became the Lord of the mode of goodness. Visnu, being transcendental to all the modes, is always aloof from materialistic affection. This has already been explained. From Brahma there is Rudra (Siva), who is in charge of the mode of ignorance or darkness. He destroys the whole creation by the will of the Lord. Therefore all three, namely Brahma, Visnu and Siva, are incarnations of the Garbhodakasayi Visnu. From Brahma the other demigods like Daksa, Marici, Manu and many others become incarnated to generate living entities within the universe. This Garbhodakasayi Visnu is glorified in the Vedas in the hymns of Garbha-stuti, which begin with the description of the Lord as having thousands of heads, etc. The Garbhodakasayi Visnu is the Lord of the universe, and although He appears to be lying within the universe, He is always transcendental. This also has already been explained. The Visnu who is the plenary portion of the Garbhodakasayi Visnu is the Supersoul of the universal life, and He is known as the maintainer of the universe or Ksirodakasayi Visnu. So the three features of the original purusa are thus understood. And all the incarnations within the universe are emanations from this Ksirodakasayi Visnu."

KRSNA IS THE SOURCE OF ALL THE PURUSAS

Although the Bhagavad-gita the Lord confirms His supreme position in many slokas (for example 7.7.), the Srimad bhagavatam gives a final verdict on this matter in the following sloka:

ete camsa-kalah pumsah

krsnas tu bhagavan svayam

indrari-vyakulam lokam

mrdayanti yuge yuge

(SB. 1.3.28)

“All the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord,but Lord Sri Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists. “

In the Caitanya Caritamrta this verse is analyzed and explained by Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami as follows:

saba avatarera kari samanya-laksana

tara madhye krsna-candrera karila ganana

tabe suta gosani mane pana bada bhaya

yara ye laksana taha karila niscaya

avatara saba -- purusera kala, amsa

svayam-bhagavan krsna sarva-avatamsa

purva-paksa kahe -- tomara bhala ta' vyakhyana

paravyoma-narayana svayam-bhagavan

tenha asi' krsna-rupe karena avatara

ei artha sloke dekhi ki ara vicara

tare kahe -- kene kara kutarkanumana

sastra-viruddhartha kabhu na haya pramana

anuvadam anuktva tu

na vidheyam udirayet

na hy alabdhaspadam kincit

kutracit pratitisthati

anuvada na kahiya na kahi vidheya

age anuvada kahi, pascad vidheya

'vidheya' kahiye tare, ye vastu ajnata

'anuvada' kahi tare, yei haya jnata

yaiche kahi, -- ei vipra parama pandita

vipra -- anuvada, ihara vidheya -- panditya

vipratva vikhyata tara panditya ajnata

ataeva vipra age, panditya pascata

taiche inha avatara saba haila jnata

kara avatara? -- ei vastu avijnata

'ete'-sabde avatarera age anuvada

'purusera amsa' pache vidheya-samvada

taiche krsna avatara-bhitare haila jnata

tanhara visesa-jnana sei avijnata

ataeva 'krsna'-sabda age anuvada

'svayam-bhagavatta' piche vidheya-samvada

krsnera svayam-bhagavatta -- iha haila sadhya

svayam-bhagavanera krsnatva haila badhya

krsna yadi amsa haita, amsi narayana

tabe viparita haita sutera vacana

narayana amsi yei svayam-bhagavan

tenha sri-krsna -- aiche karita vyakhyana

(Adi 2.68-85)

"The Bhagavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Sri Krsna among them.This made Suta Gosvami greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptoms. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the purusa-avataras, but the primeval Lord is Sri Krsna. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say, "This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Narayana, who is in the transcendental realm. "He [Narayana] incarnates as Lord Krsna. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration."To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, "Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principles of scripture.'One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.'If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then I speak the latter.The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him. For example, we may say, 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition.The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later. In the same way, all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown."First the word 'ete' ['these'] establishes the subject [the incarnations]. Then 'plenary portions of the purusa-avataras' follows as the predicate."In the same way, when Krsna was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown."Therefore first the word 'krsna' appears as the subject, followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead."This establishes that Sri Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Krsna."Had Krsna been the plenary portion and Narayana the primeval Lord, the statement of Suta Gosvami would have been reversed."Thus he would have said, 'Narayana, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Sri Krsna.'

Krsnadas Kaviraja then continues:

bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, karanapatava

arsa-vijna-vakye nahi dosa ei saba

(Adi 2.86)

"Mistakes, illusions, cheating and defective perception do not occur in the sayings of the authoritative sages."

Srila Prabhupada comments: "Srimad-Bhagavatam has listed the avataras, the plenary expansions of the purusa, and Lord Krsna appears among them. But the Bhagavatam further explains Lord Krsna's specific position as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Since Lord Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead, reason and argument establish that His position is always supreme.Had Krsna been a plenary expansion of Narayana, the original verse would have been differently composed; indeed, its order would have been reversed. But there cannot be mistakes, illusion, cheating or imperfect perception in the words of liberated sages. Therefore there is no mistake in this statement that Lord Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Sanskrit statements of Srimad-Bhagavatam are all transcendental sounds. Srila Vyasadeva revealed these statements after perfect realization, and therefore they are perfect, for liberated sages like Vyasadeva never commit errors in their rhetorical arrangements. Unless one accepts this fact, there is no use in trying to obtain help from the revealed scriptures. Bhrama refers to false knowledge or mistakes, such as accepting a rope as a snake or an oyster shell as gold. Pramada refers to inattention or misunderstanding of reality, and vipralipsa is the cheating propensity. Karanapatava refers to imperfectness of the material senses. There are many examples of such imperfection. The eyes cannot see that which is very distant or very small. One cannot even see his own eyelid, which is the closest thing to his eye, and if one is disturbed by a disease like jaundice, he sees everything to be yellow. Similarly, the ears cannot hear distant sounds. Since the Personality of Godhead and His plenary portions and self-realized devotees are all transcendentally situated, they cannot be misled by such deficiencies."

The text of Caitanya Caritamrta continues:

viruddhartha kaha tumi, kahite kara rosa

tomara arthe avimrsta-vidheyamsa-dosa

yanra bhagavatta haite anyera bhagavatta

'svayam-bhagavan'-sabdera tahatei satta

dipa haite yaiche bahu dipera jvalana

mula eka dipa taha kariye ganana

(Adi 2.86-89)

"You say something contradictory and become angry when this is pointed out. Your explanation has the defect of a misplaced predicate. This is an unconsidered adjustment. Only the Personality of Godhead, the source of all other Divinities, is eligible to be designated svayam bhagavan, or the primeval Lord. When from one candle many others are lit, I consider that one the original."

Srila Prabhupada comments: "The Brahma-samhita, Chapter Five, verse 46, states that the visnu-tattva, or the principle of the Absolute Personality of Godhead, is like a lamp because the expansions equal their origin in all respects. A burning lamp can light innumerable other lamps, and although they will not be inferior, still the lamp from which the others are lit must be considered the original. Similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself in the plenary forms of the visnu-tattva, and although they are equally powerful, the original powerful Personality of Godhead is considered the source. This example also explains the appearance of qualitative incarnations like Lord Siva and Lord Brahma. According to Srila Jiva Gosvami, sambhos tu tamo-'dhisthanatvat kajjalamaya-suksma-dipa-sikha-sthaniyasya na tatha samyam: "The sambhu-tattva, or the principle of Lord Siva, is like a lamp covered with carbon because of his being in charge of the mode of ignorance. The illumination from such a lamp is very minute. Therefore the power of Lord Siva cannot compare to that of the Visnu principle."

MORE EVIDENCE THAT KRSNA IS THE SOURCE OF VISNU

yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya

jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah

visnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-viseso

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

"Brahma and other lords of the mundane worlds, appearing from the pores of hair of Maha-Visnu, remain alive as long as the duration of one exhalation of the latter [Maha-Visnu]. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whose subjective personality Maha-Visnu is the portion of portion."

(Bs 5.48)

Shrimad-Bhagavatam (10.85.31) describes Devaki’s prayer and confirms the related statement:“My dear Krishna, I know that Maha-Vishnu, who is lying in the causal ocean of the cosmic manifestation, and who is the source of this whole creation, is simply an expansion of Your plenary portion. Creation, maintenance, and annihilation of this cosmic manifestation are being effected only by Your plenary portion. I am, therefore, taking shelter of You without any reservation.”

Furthermore it is stated in the same Canto:

“O Lord of lords, O Lord Krishna, You are the seer of all creation. You are indeed everyone’s dearest life. Are You not, therefore, my father, Narayana? The sacredd name ‘Narayana’ refers to one whose abode is in the water born from Nara (that is Garbhodakashayi Vishnu). Indeed, that Narayana is also Your plenary portion. All Your plenary portions are transcendental. They are absolute and are not creations of Maya.” (10.14.14)

“O Lord Krishna, persons who are unaware of Your inconceivable energy cannot understand that You alone expand Yourself as the creator Brahma, maintainer Vishnu, and annihilator Shiva. Persons who are not in awareness of things as they are contemplate that I, Brahma, am the creator, Vishnu is the maintainer, and Lord Shiva is the annihilator. Actually You are alone everything: creator, maintainer and annihillator.” (10.14.19)

Ramanujacarya has also admitted Krsna the Supreme. Sankaracarya has admitted in his note on Bhagavad-gita, sa bhagavan svayam krsnah.

(Room Conversation of Srila Prabhupada with Prof. Regamay – June 4, 1974, Geneva)

64 QUALITIES

Another evidence that Krsna is the supreme is that He possesses all the 64 qualities or attributes that no other expansion possesses (not even Narayana or Visnu). Srila Prabhupada explains: "Originally the Lord is full of all opulences, all prowess, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation. When they are partly manifested through the plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions, it should be noted that certain manifestations of His different powers are required for those particular functions. When in the room small electric bulbs are displayed, it does not mean that the electric powerhouse is limited by the small bulbs. The same powerhouse can supply power to operate large-scale industrial dynamos with greater volts. Similarly, the incarnations of the Lord display limited powers because so much power is needed at that particular time.For example, Lord Parasurama and Lord Nrsimha displayed unusual opulence by killing the disobedient ksatriyas twenty-one times and killing the greatly powerful atheist Hiranyakasipu. Hiranyakasipu was so powerful that even the demigods in other planets would tremble simply by the unfavorable raising of his eyebrow. The demigods in the higher level of material existence many, many times excel the most well-to-do human beings in longevity, beauty, wealth, paraphernalia and all other respects. Still they were afraid of Hiranyakasipu. Thus we can simply imagine how powerful Hiranyakasipu was in this material world. But even Hiranyakasipu was cut into small pieces by the nails of Lord Nrsimha. This means that anyone materially powerful cannot stand the strength of the Lord's nails. Similarly, Jamadagnya displayed the Lord's power to kill all the disobedient kings powerfully situated in their respective states. The Lord's empowered incarnation Narada and plenary incarnation Varaha, as well as indirectly empowered Lord Buddha, created faith in the mass of people. The incarnations of Rama and Dhanvantari displayed His fame, and Balarama, Mohini and Vamana exhibited His beauty. Dattatreya, Matsya, Kumara and Kapila exhibited His transcendental knowledge. Nara and Narayana Rsis exhibited His renunciation. So all the different indirectly or directly empowered incarnations of the Lord manifested different features, but Lord Krsna, the primeval Lord, exhibited the complete features of Godhead, and thus it is confirmed that He is the source of all other incarnations. And the most extraordinary feature exhibited by Lord Sri Krsna was His internal energetic manifestation of His pastimes with the cowherd girls. His pastimes with the gopis are all displays of transcendental existence, bliss and knowledge, although these are manifested apparently as sex love. The specific attraction of His pastimes with the gopis should never be misunderstood. The Bhagavatam relates these transcendental pastimes in the Tenth Canto. And in order to reach the position to understand the transcendental nature of Lord Krsna's pastimes with the gopis, the Bhagavatam promotes the student gradually in nine other cantos.

According to Srila Jiva Gosvami's statement, in accordance with authoritative sources, Lord Krsna is the source of all other incarnations. It is not that Lord Krsna has any source of incarnation. All the symptoms of the Supreme Truth are present in full are present in the person of Lord Sri Krsna, and in the Bhagavad-gita the Lord emphatically declares that there is no truth greater than or equal to Himself...Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum Krsna to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But Sri Krsna is the possessor of the attributes cent per cent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakasa and tad-ekatma, up to the categories of the avataras who are visnu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. (SB 1.3.28 purport)

These qualities are stated by Srila Rupa Goswami in the Nectar of Devotion as follows:

61. Performer of Wonderful Activities

In the Brhad-vamana Purana, the Lord says, "Although I have many fascinating pastimes, whenever I think of the rasa-lila, which I perform with the gopis, I become eager to have it again."

One devotee has said, "I know about Narayana, the husband of the goddess of fortune, and I also know about many other incarnations of the Lord. Certainly all the pastimes of such incarnations are exciting to my mind, but still the pastimes of the rasa-lila performed by Lord Krsna Himself are wonderfully increasing my transcendental pleasure."

62. Krsna Is Surrounded by Loving Devotees

When we speak of Krsna, Krsna is not alone. "Krsna" means His name, His qualities, His fame, His friends, His paraphernalia, His entourage -- all of these are included. When we speak of a king, it is to be understood that he is surrounded by ministers, secretaries, military commanders and many other people. Similarly, Krsna is not impersonal. In His Vrndavana lila especially, He is surrounded by the gopis, the cowherd boys, His father, His mother and all the inhabitants of Vrndavana.

In the Tenth Canto, Thirty-first Chapter, verse 15, of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the gopis lament, "My dear Krsna, during the daytime when You go out into the forest of Vrndavana with Your cows, we consider one moment to be twelve years, and it is very difficult for us to pass the time. And again when You come back at the end of the day, by seeing Your beautiful face we are so much attracted that we are unable to stop looking upon You constantly. At these times, when there is occasional blinking of our eyelids, we condemn the creator, Lord Brahma, as a dunce, because he does not know how to make perfect eyes!" In other words, the gopis were disturbed by the blinking of their eyes, because for the moment that their eyes were closed they could not see Krsna. This means that the gopis' love for Krsna was so great and ecstatic that they were disturbed by even His momentary absence. And when they saw Krsna, they were also disturbed. This is a paradox.

One gopi, expressing herself to Krsna, says, "When we meet You at night, we consider the duration of night to be very small. And why speak of only this night? Even if we had a night of Brahma we would consider it a very short time!" We get an idea of Brahma's day from the following statement of Bhagavad-gita (8.17): "By human calculation, a thousand yuga cycles taken together is Brahma's one day. And such also is the duration of his night." The gopis said that even if they could have that duration of night, it would still not be sufficient for their meeting with Krsna.

63. Krsna's Attractive Flute

In the Tenth Canto, Thirty-fifth Chapter, verses 14-15, of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the gopis tell Mother Yasoda, "When your son plays on His flute, Lord Siva, Lord Brahma and Indra -- although they are supposed to be the greatest learned scholars and personalities -- all become bewildered. Although they are all very great personalities, by hearing the sound of Krsna's flute they humbly bow down and become grave from studying the sound vibrated."

In his book Vidagdha-madhava, Sri Rupa Gosvami thus describes the vibration of Krsna's flute: "The sound vibration created by the flute of Krsna wonderfully stopped Lord Siva from playing his dindima drum, and the same flute has caused great sages like the four Kumaras to become disturbed in their meditation. It has caused Lord Brahma, who was sitting on the lotus flower for the creative function, to become astonished. And Anantadeva, who was calmly holding all the planets on His hoods, was moving in this way and that due to the transcendental vibration from Krsna's flute, which penetrated through the covering of this universe and reached to the spiritual sky."

64. Krsna's Exquisite Beauty

In the Third Canto, Second Chapter, verse 12, of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Uddhava tells Vidura, "My dear sir, Krsna's form was most wonderful when He appeared on this planet and exhibited the potency of His internal energy. His wonderfully attractive form was present during His pastimes on this planet, and by His internal potency He exhibited His opulences, which are striking to everyone. His personal beauty was so great that there was no necessity for His wearing ornaments on His body. In fact, instead of the ornaments' beautifying Krsna, Krsna's beauty enhanced the ornaments."

Regarding the attractiveness of Krsna's bodily beauty and the sound vibration of His flute, in the Tenth Canto, Twenty-ninth Chapter, verse 40, of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the gopis address Krsna as follows: "Although our attitude toward You resembles loving affairs with a paramour, we cannot but wonder at how no woman can maintain her chastity upon hearing the vibration from Your flute. And not only women, but even stronghearted men are subject to falling down from their position at the sound of Your flute. In fact, we have seen that in Vrndavana even the cows, the deer, the birds, the trees -- everyone -- has been enchanted by the sweet vibration of Your flute and the fascinating beauty of Your person."

In Rupa Gosvami's Lalita-madhava, it is said, "One day Krsna happened to see the shadow of His beautiful form reflected on the jeweled foreground. Upon seeing this bodily reflection, He expressed His feelings: 'How wonderful it is that I have never seen such a beautiful form! Although it is My own form, still, like Radharani, I am trying to embrace this form and enjoy celestial bliss.'" This statement shows how Krsna and His shadow reflection are one and the same. There is no difference between Krsna and His shadow reflection, nor between Krsna and His picture. That is the transcendental position of Krsna.

The above statements describe some of the wonderful reservoirs of pleasure within Krsna, as well as the transcendental qualities of His personality. The transcendental qualities of Krsna are compared to the ocean: no one can estimate the length and breadth of the ocean. But as one can understand the ocean's contents simply by testing one drop of it, so these statements will give us some understanding of Krsna's transcendental position and qualities.

In the Tenth Canto, Fourteenth Chapter, verse 7, of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Lord Brahma says, "My dear Lord, the inconceivable qualities, beauties and activities which You have revealed by Your presence on this planet cannot be calculated by any material measurement. If one even tries to imagine, 'Krsna may be like this,' that is also impossible. The day may come when the material scientist, after many, many births or after many, many years, will be able to estimate the atomic constitution of the whole world, or he may be able to count the atomic fragments that permeate the sky, or he may even give an estimate of all the atoms within the universe, but still he will never be able to count the transcendental qualities in Your reservoir of transcendental bliss."

(Nectar of Devotion : Qualities of Sri Krsna. )

Maha-Visnu lying on the causal ocean

KRISHNA ENTERS THE MATERIAL WORLD THROUGH VISHNU

Srila Prabhupada also reveals wherefrom this idea that Krishna is coming from Vishnu came from.In the Caitanya Caritamrta it is stated:

ataeva caitanya gosani paratattva-sima

tanre ksiroda-sayi kahi, ki tanra mahima

sei ta' bhaktera vakya nahe vyabhicari

sakala sambhave tante, yate avatari

(Adi. 2.110-111)

"Therefore Lord Caitanya is the Supreme Absolute Truth. To call Him Ksirodakasayi Visnu does not add to His glory.But such words from the lips of a sincere devotee cannot be false. All possibilities abide in Him, for He is the primeval Lord."

Furthermore it is stated:

avatarira dehe saba avatarera sthiti

keho kona-mate kahe, yemana yara mati

(Adi. 2.112)

All other incarnations are situated in potential form in the original body of the primeval Lord. Thus according to one's opinion, one may address Him as any one of the incarnations.

Srila Prabhupada explains: "It is not contradictory for a devotee to call the Supreme Lord by any one of the various names of His plenary expansions, because the original Personality of Godhead includes all such categories. Since the plenary expansions exist within the original person, one may call Him by any of these names. In Sri Caitanya-bhagavata (CB Madhya-khanda 6.95) Lord Caitanya says, "I was lying asleep in the ocean of milk, but I was awakened by the call of Nada, Sri Advaita Prabhu." Here the Lord refers to His form as Ksirodakasayi Visnu.

The text continues as follows:

krsnake kahaye keha -- nara-narayana

keho kahe, krsna haya saksat vamana

keho kahe, krsna ksiroda-sayi avatara

asambhava nahe, satya vacana sabara

(Adi. 2.113-114)

Some say that Sri Krsna is directly Nara-Narayana. Others say that He is directly Vamana.Some say that Krsna is the incarnation of Ksirodakasayi Visnu. None of these statements is impossible; each is as correct as the others.

Srila Prabhupada explains: "The Laghu-bhagavatamrta (5.383) states:

ata eva puranadau kecin nara-sakhatmatam

mahendranujatam kecit kecit ksirabdhi-sayitam

sahasra-sirsatam kecit kecid vaikuntha-nathatam

bruyuh krsnasya munayas tat-tad-vrtty-anugaminah

"According to the intimate relationships between Sri Krsna, the primeval Lord, and His devotees, the Puranas describe Him by various names. Sometimes He is called Narayana; sometimes Upendra (Vamana), the younger brother of Indra, king of heaven; and sometimes Ksirodakasayi Visnu. Sometimes He is called the thousand-hooded Sesa Naga, and sometimes the Lord of Vaikuntha."

The text continues:

keho kahe, para-vyome narayana hari

sakala sambhave krsne, yate avatari

(Adi 2.115)

Some call Him Hari, or the Narayana of the transcendental world. Everything is possible in Krsna, for He is the primeval Lord.

Srila Prabhupada mentions this point in his conversations as well:

And when any incarnation comes within this world, He comes through Ksirodakasayi-Visnu. In that way, Krsna comes through Ksirodakasayi-Visnu. But this Ksirodakasayi-Visnu is the expansion of the expansion of Krsna.

Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay – June 4, 1974, Geneva

Indian man: Personally there is only one question I have, and that is, throughout all the Srimad-Bhagavatams that you have translated so far, I see all the time any, like Kardama Muni or other, all other great sages, whenever they do tapasya, every time Maha-Visnu comes down. Now I know that throughout other, even Back to Godhead, you have considered Maha-Visnu as an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, yet Maha-Visnu is coming every time as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So what is the subtle position here?

Prabhupada: There is no difference between... Just like... It has been explained in the Brahma-samhita. Just like one candle, then you kindle another candle, then you kindle another, another, another, another. So you say, "This is first, this is second, this is third, this is fourth..." But so far candle power is concerned, they are all the same. Either you take first or the second or the third, so far the candle power is concerned, that is all the same. Still, you have to say, "This is first, this is second, that is third, this is fourth..."

Indian man: I was trying to... I was trying...

Prabhupada: So God and His different expansions, they are of same power. Ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu, krsnah svayam samabhavat paramah puman yo... [Bs. 5.39].

Indian man: Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **.

Prabhupada: So He is existing with all the incarnations, ramadi-murtisu. So Rama is not less than Krsna, but He is incarnation. This is the conclusion.

Indian man: Because I was trying to refer to Govindastakam, Where it says, (sings) sri krsna radha ara gokulesa gopala govardhana-natha visnu, jiveti amrtamedhadevo govindam damodaram ada vetti(?). He's saying, sri krsna radha ara gokulesa gopala govardhana-natha visnu. That is what I was trying to see that is really... I know that say Krsna's expansion is Maha-Visnu, but still, why do they say govardhana-natha visnu? That I was trying to understand. Please don't misunderstand me.

Prabhupada: No, no, Govardhana... Every one is visnu-tattva. Visnu-tattva, jiva-tattva, sakti-tattva, like that. So all of them on the Visnu category. That's all. Visnu-taya vibhati. Visnu-taya vibhati. Diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetya dipayate visnu-taya vibhati [Bs. 5.46]. These things are there. So Godhead is visnu-tattva. So sometimes Visnu, sometimes Narayana, sometimes Govinda, sometimes Krsna, like that.

Indian man: That's very nice, because one can understand very well. Because I always took Maha-Visnu as the expansion of Krsna, but still, when I went to Govindastakam and then also like Brahma-samhita says, yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja... [Bs. 5.48].

Prabhupada: Loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah.

Indian man: ...jagad-anda-nathah, visnur mahan sa iha yasya (Prabhupada quotes same verse simultaneously) kala-viseso govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami. So he says Maha-Visnu is even one expansion of Krsna, yet in Govindastakam they say, govardhana, gopala govardhana-natha visnu, sri krsna radha gokulesa, gopala govardhana-natha visnu.

Prabhupada: They're all visnu-tattva. Visnu-sahasra-nama-stotra.

Indian man: Because many people... At least among the Indians I get very big argument about it, that it is Maha-Visnu who is Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Krsna is only one avatara of His. And I try to...

Prabhupada: That argument is discussed in the Caitanya-caritamrta.

Hari-sauri: First volume?

Prabhupada: Yes, first volume you see. You see. See the contents. You can't find it? When he is discussing somebody, says Visnu is the origin? So children, how many?

Indian man: No children.

Prabhupada: No children.

Indian man: No children

Prabhupada: That is good than another. (laughs) No responsibility.

Indian man: I have decided that in about five, ten years, I'll work that much only. Afterwards I'm going to go to work for you.

Prabhupada: Thank you.

Indian man: Because I don't find any more pleasures, you know, in anything. As I go on chanting and chanting and chanting, sometime, Prabhupada... Oh, my first dream that came when I joined your movement... First dream that I came... And I told my wife about it in the morning. I said, first I saw a moon, and then I saw another large planet coming up, and then on the top of it I saw the lotus feet of the Lord. And when I saw the lotus feet of the Lord, I saw you coming on a swan and doing His puja. And I kept on shouting to my wife that "Please see Prabhupada is here. Please see. He is doing puja of lotus feet of the Lord." And that was my first dream that came. Sometimes after chanting all the time I feel as if He is walking next to me. I can feel as if His bluish body is right next to me, and all the time I have a feeling that somebody is next to me, you know. I don't know whether I'm going crazy or I'm...

Prabhupada: Krsna is already there. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. So?

Tamala Krsna: So I asked, I took a poll, census poll of about six or seven GBC men, including Kirtanananda, Ramesvara, Bali-mardana, so many men who know New York, and they all thought that if you join the parade at Twenty-third Street...

Prabhupada: Twenty-third. At what time?

Tamala Krsna: Ah, it'll be... It should be at about 3:15, like that.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Tamala Krsna: Then it will be nice. Because the whole parade is about fifty-four blocks, and you'll be riding for about nineteen blocks. It means your ride will take about forty-five minutes.

Prabhupada: So what time I'll going to start?

Tamala Krsna: From here?

Prabhupada: Somebody will come?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, I think I will probably come. Kirtanananda will also...

Prabhupada: At what time?

Tamala Krsna: I think, say, it's going to be either 2:45 or 3:00. Tomorrow morning I'll let you know.

Prabhupada: So at 3:00 I shall be ready. You can come and take me. That's all.

Tamala Krsna: Well, I think at 3:00... But then by the time we get in the car... I think it will work, 3:00 o'clock.

Prabhupada: That's all right. 3:00 o'clock, I'll be ready. You come and take. In the meantime, I shall finish my...

Tamala Krsna: Yes, that will leave a little time for resting. The whole program should be over by about...

Prabhupada: So tomorrow I shall take lunch at 1:00. That's all. Then, by 3:00 o'clock, I shall be ready. (to Indian man:) (Hindi?) Krsna is preparing you to join this movement wholeheartedly. It is very nice. Now you have got it?

Jayadvaita: Yes. Krsnadasa Kaviraja quotes, ete camsa-kalah pumsah krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. "All these incarnations of Godhead are either plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the purusa-avataras, but Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." Then he says, "The Bhagavatam describes the symptoms and deeds of the incarnations in general and counts Sri Krsna among them. This made Suta Gosvami greatly apprehensive. Therefore he distinguished each incarnation by its specific symptoms. All the incarnations of Godhead are plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions of the purusa-avataras, but the primeval Lord is Sri Krsna. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the fountainhead of all incarnations. An opponent may say, 'This is your interpretation, but actually the Supreme Lord is Narayana, who is in the transcendental realm. He, Narayana, incarnates as Lord Krsna. This is the meaning of the verse as I see it. There is no need for further consideration.' To such a misguided interpreter we may reply, 'Why should you suggest such fallacious logic? An interpretation is never accepted as evidence if it opposes the principles of scripture. One should not state a predicate before its subject, for it cannot thus stand without proper support.' If I do not state a subject, I do not state a predicate. First I speak the former and then the latter. The predicate of a sentence is what is unknown to the reader, whereas the subject is what is known to him. For example, we may say, 'This vipra is a greatly learned man.' In this sentence, the vipra is the subject, and the predicate is his erudition. The man's being a vipra is known, but his erudition is unknown. Therefore the person is identified first and his erudition later. In the same way all these incarnations were known, but whose incarnations they are was unknown. First the word ete, 'these,' establishes the subject, the incarnation. Then 'plenary portions of the purusa-avataras' follows as the predicate. In the same way, when Krsna was first counted among the incarnations, specific knowledge about Him was still unknown. Therefore the word Krsna appears as the subject followed by the predicate, describing Him as the original Personality of Godhead. This establishes that Sri Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead. The original Personality of Godhead is therefore necessarily Krsna. Had Krsna been the plenary portion and Narayana the primeval Lord, the statement of Suta Gosvami would have been reversed. Thus he would have said, 'Narayana, the source of all incarnations, is the original Personality of Godhead. He has appeared as Sri Krsna.' "

Prabhupada: So everything is given with logic and argument. Ete camsa-kalah pumsah krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. First of all He's grouped among the incarnations, but Krsna is not incarnation. He's bhagavan svayam.

Indian man: He comes original.

Prabhupada: Yes. So if you argue against the authority of Bhagavatam, then that argument has no value.

Indian man: That's where the problem in India is. Everyone is saying God is Maha-Visnu, and Krsna and Rama are only avataras, and that's where the big argument came in. In fact, I talked to so many...

Prabhupada: Otherwise why Suta Gosvami, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]? And Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. So how one can say like that? That means less intelligent. If Krsna... If one accepts the authority of Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Then how they falsely say? Aham adir hi devanam. Find out this verse.

Hari-sauri:

na me viduh sura-ganah

prabhavam na maharsayah

aham adir hi devanam

maharsinam ca sarvasah

[Bg 10.2]

Prabhupada: Sarvasah. (Hindi)

Indian man: No. Never. He has no reason to cheat us. He has no reason to lie.

Hari-sauri: Shall I read the...?

Prabhupada: Umhm.

Hari-sauri: "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin, for, in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages." Purport?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: "As stated in Brahma-samhita, Lord Krsna is the Supreme Lord. No one is greater than Him; He is the cause of all causes. Here it is also stated by the Lord personally that He is the cause of all the demigods and the sages. Even the demigods and great sages cannot understand Krsna. They can neither understand His name nor His personality, so what is the position of the so-called scholars of this tiny planet? No one can understand why the Supreme God comes to earth as an ordinary human being and executes such commonplace and yet wonderful activities. One should know, then, that scholarship is not the qualification necessary to understand Krsna. Even the demigods and the great sages have tried to understand Krsna by their mental speculation, and they have failed to do so. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam also it is stated clearly that even the great demigods are not able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They can speculate to the limits of their imperfect senses and can reach the opposite conclusion of impersonalism, of something not manifested by the three qualities of material nature. Or they can imagine something by mental speculation. But it is not possible to understand Krsna by such foolish speculation. Here the Lord indirectly says that if anyone wants to know the Absolute Truth, 'Here I am, present as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I am the Supreme.' One should know this. Although one cannot understand the inconceivable Lord who is personally present, He nonetheless exists. We can actually understand Krsna who is eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, simply by studying His words in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. The impersonal Brahman can be conceived by persons who are already in the inferior energy of the Lord, but the Personality of Godhead cannot be conceived unless one is in the transcendental position. Because most men cannot understand Krsna in His actual situation, out of His causeless mercy He descends to show favor to such speculators. Yet despite the Supreme Lord's uncommon activities, these speculators, due to contamination in the material energy, still think that the impersonal Brahman is the Supreme. Only the devotees who are fully surrendered unto the Supreme Lord can understand, by the grace of the Lord, that He is Krsna. The devotees of the Lord do not bother about the impersonal Brahman conception of God. Their faith and devotion bring them to surrender immediately unto the Supreme Lord, and out of the causeless mercy of Krsna, they can understand Krsna. No one else can understand Him. So even great sages agree, 'What is atma? What is the Supreme? It is He whom we have to worship.' "

Indian man: In my class I run into lot of arguments, especially from our Indian people, and this is one of the biggest arguments people pose. They say, "Why are you calling yourselves Vaisnavas and not Krsnayas?"

Prabhupada: Hm?

Indian man: If I call Krsna, I accept Krsna as Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then the question comes to me, "Why are you calling yourself Vaisnavas? Why not Krsnayas?"

Prabhupada: That already is explained, that Krsna or Rama, Visnu, Narayana, They are all visnu-tattva. Therefore Visnu is the common word for everyone. Just like candle. Everyone is candle, but still, this is first candle, this is second candle, this is third candle, like that. So Godhead means all visnu-tattva. They are not jiva-tattva. So therefore those who are devotee of God, they are called Vaisnava.

Hari-sauri: This specific Vaisnava, that refers to Visnu? Worshipers of Visnu?

Prabhupada: Yes. Visnu asyra devatah iti vaisnavah.(?)

Indian man: Throughout Vedas also, Visnu is the yajnesvara.

Prabhupada: The supreme, yes.

Indian man: Yajno vai visnuh.

Prabhupada: Visnur aradhyate. Visnur aradhyate, nanyat tat-tosa-karanam. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Visnor aradhanam. Aradhananam sarvesam visnor aradhanam param **. These are the sastric..., that visnor aradhana. Krsna-aradhana is also visnu-aradhana.

Indian man: In fact, even Brahma-samhita, Brahmaji says,

yah karanarnava-jale bhajati sma yoga-

nidram ananta-jagad-anda-saroma-kupah

adhara-saktim avalambya param sva-murtim

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

[Bs. 5.47]

"So Visnu is creating all the planetary systems. He's in His yoga-nidra, He is the original Govinda, and I worship Him." So that is why both names are used so synonymously. And that is why people are questioning me, and I have difficulty to answer them. Although I accept Krsna as original Personality of Godhead, but how to explain to them?

Prabhupada: No, these are the references.

Jayadvaita: In here also. Should I read the verse? "All other incarnations are potentially situated in the original body of the primeval Lord. Thus, according to one's opinion, one may address Him as any one of the incarnations." Purport: "It is not contradictory for a devotee to call the Supreme Lord by any one of the various names of His plenary expansions, because the original Personality of Godhead includes all such categories. Since the plenary expansions exist within the original person, one may call Him by any of these names. In Sri Caitanya-bhagavata Lord Caitanya says, 'I was lying asleep in the ocean of milk, but I was wakened by the call of Nada, Sri Advaita Prabhu.' Here the Lord refers to His form as Ksirodakasayi Visnu." Translation: "Some say that Sri Krsna is directly Nara-Narayana, others say that He is directly Vamana. Some say that Krsna is the incarnation of Ksirodakasayi Visnu. None of these statements is impossible. Each of them is as correct as the others." Purport: "Laghu-bhagavatamrta states,

ataeva puranadau kecin nara-sakhatmatam

mahendranujatam kecit kecit ksirabdhi-sayitam

sahasra-sirsatam kecit kecid vaikuntha-nathatam

bruyuh krsnasya munayas tat-tad-vrtty-anugaminah

'According to the intimate relationships between Sri Krsna, the primeval Lord, and His devotees, the Puranas describe Him by various names. Sometimes He is called Narayana; sometimes Upendra (Vamana), the younger brother of Indra, King of heaven; and sometimes Ksirodakasayi Visnu...' "

Prabhupada: They are all visnu-tattva.

Indian man: In fact, I remember very vividly that in Srimad-Bhagavatam you wrote that it was Ksirodakasayi Visnu who came down to bless Dhruva Maharaja when the planetary system started trembling due to his tapasya here. Ksirodakasayi Visnu. This is why people are questioning me continuously that "How can you call Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not Visnu?" And I say "All are visnu-tattva." But it is very difficult to explain to them the actual position of Krsna, because only through chanting...

Prabhupada: That is decided by Bhagavatam, ete camsa-kalah pumsah krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28], that tu, the name Krsna, in the incarnation of God, Krsna is also included, but this Krsna is the origin.

Indian man:

isvarah paramah krsnah

sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah

sarva-karana-karanam

[Bs. 5.1]

Prabhupada: So we have to take the direction. So that is also explained. Even if you say, "Krsna is Vamana," there is nothing wrong. If you believe that Krsna is incarnation of Visnu, there is nothing wrong.

Indian man: I don't believe that.

Prabhupada: No, no, others. Others...

Indian man: I believe Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Prabhupada: Others. We simply accept, "Yes it is all right." That's all. So that's a fact, because when Krsna comes, He comes through Ksirodakasayi Visnu.

Indian man: I ask them then that "Explain the three Visnus-Maha Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. Even Visnu Himself has expanded, what to talk of Krsna." And then I ask them that "Krsna came from which Visnu? You tell me. If you can tell me that, then I will accept that Krsna came from Visnu. But if not, you have to accept my statement that Krsna is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead. And you will not know Him unless you chant. Unless you chant."

Prabhupada: Sometimes Maha-Visnu wanted to see Krsna. That is mentioned in the Bhagavata, and He took Arjuna with Him.

(Room Conversation -- July 17, 1976, New York)