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Did We Fall From the SPiritual world?

Srila Prabhupada gives an elaborate answer to this question in the following conversation.

Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Prabhupada: Many, there are many reasons.

Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krsna, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature... Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how maya works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how maya works and how I might fall.

Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They were Krsna's doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?

Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krsna's personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse.

Pusta Krsna:

iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa

[Bg. 7.27]

"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

Prabhupada: Purport.

Pusta Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.

Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire?

Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.

Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina: And no love.

Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

Vipina: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Krsna, we suffer.

Prabhupada: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Krsna does not force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business.

Vipina: So what is the choice?

Prabhupada: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krsna says that "You surrender to Me," you surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative.

Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail instead of the attitude.

Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore government has to construct a jailhouse. It is government's not desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krsna, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."

Vipina: We also say that Krsna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krsna, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?

Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is maya it is called. You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.

Vipina: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.

Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy-enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.

Vipina: Hm, enjoy at your risk. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is the fact.

Vipina: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.

Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me, you'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.





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